COMING UP NEXT ON INSIGHTS ON
PBS HAWAI’I, SHOULD THE 30-METER TELESCOPE BE BUILT?>>MALIA: ALOHA AND WELCOME TO
INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAII. I’M MALIA MATTOCH.
YOUR HOST FOR TONIGHT’S SHOW. HOURS AGO THE OFFICE OF
HAWAIIAN AFFAIRS RESCINDED SUPPORT FOR THE 30-METER
TELESCOPE ON MAUNA KEA. TESTIFIERS AT OHA’S PUBLIC
HEARING CONVINCED TRUSTEES THAT POTENTIAL FOR SCIENTIFIC
ADVANCEMENT MIGHT NOT BE WORTH THE ENVIRONMENTAL AND
CULTURAL RISK. OHA’S ACTION CAME AFTER WEEKS
OF PROTESTS. BROUGHT CONSTRUCTION OF THE 1
STORY TELESCOPE TO A TEMPORARY HALT.
PLANS FOR THE $1.4 BILLION TELESCOPE WERE APPROVED IN
THE PROCESS THAT BEGAN 7 YEARS AGO BUT SOME OPPONENTS ARE
QUESTIONING THE STEWARDSHIP OF MAUNA KEA BY THE
UNIVERSITY OF HAWAI’I. TONIGHT ON INNIGHTS, SHOULD
THE 30-METER TELESCOPE BE BUILT? WE ENCOURAGE VIEWERS
TO JOIN TONIGHT’S CONVERSATION BY CALLING
973-1000 IF YOU LIVE ON OAHU. OR 800-238-4847 IF YOU’RE
CALLING FROM A NEIGHBOR ISLAND.
IF YOU HAVE A SMART PHONE, TABLET OR COMPUTER, YOU CAN
WATCH INNIGHTS STREAMED LIVE AT PBS HAWAI’I HAWAI’I.
CLICK ON THE INSIGHTS TITLE OR FIND US ON [email protected]
HAWAI’I. USE THE HASHTAG TO MAKE SURE
WE SEE YOUR TWEET. TO OUR PANEL.
PAUL COLEMAN IS A NATIVE HAWAIIAN ASTROPHYSICIST AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF HAWAI’I INSTITUTE FOR ASTRONOMY.
HE SUPPORTS CONSTRUCTION OF THE 30-METER TELESCOPE WHICH
HE THINKS COULD BENEFIT NATIVE HAWAIIANS AND THE
STATE AS A WHOLE. KEALOHA PISCIOTTA IS
PRESIDENT OF MAUNA KEA AND ANAINA HOU, SPIRIT CAL
ORGANIZATION FOR PEOPLE WITH A CONNECTION TO MAUNA KEA.
SHE HAS BECOME THE SPOKESPERSON FOR THE
MAUNA KEA HUI REPRESENTING THOSE OPPOSED TO THE
TELESCOPE. JOHN OSORIO IS BOARD
PRESIDENT FOR KAHEA, THE HAWAIIAN ENVIRONMENTAL
ALLIANCE THAT OPPOSES CONSTRUCTION OF 30-METER
TELESCOPE AND CONCERN FOR THE BIOLOGICAL AND CULTURAL
RESOURCES AT THE SUMMIT AREA. RICHARD HA IS THE FOUNDER AND
PRESIDENT OF HAMAKUA SPRINGS COUNTY FARMS IN EAST HAWAI’I.
MR. HA IS FIRST AT FIRST OPPOSED PLANS FOR THE
OBSERVATORY, BUT HAS SINCE REVERSED HIS POSITION AND HAS
TESTIFIED AT PUBLIC MEETINGS IN SUPPORT OF THE TELESCOPE.
THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE. BY RANDOM DRAW, YOU GET THE
FIRST QUESTION. WE GET YOUR RESPONSE TO THE
ACTION FROM OHA TODAY.>>REGARDING OHA.
WELL, IT’S PRETTY DISAPPOINTING.
BUT IT’S BEEN DISAPPOINTING SO I’M NOT ANY MORE
DISAPPOINTED THAN I’VE BEEN THUS FAR.
JOHN AND I ARE LITIGANTS SO WE’VE BEEN ASKING HELP FROM
OHA TO HELP FUND OUR LAWSUITS. BECAUSE OHA IS LEGALLY
MANDATED TO PROTECT NOT ONLY RIGHTS BUT RESOURCES.
BOTH OF WHICH ARE THREATENING.
BOTH HAVE NOT BEEN, FOR EXAMPLE, THE RENT ISSUE IS A
LONG STANDING ISSUE. THE UNIVERSITY AND
INTERNATIONAL TELESCOPE STILL PAY A DOLLAR.
WHILE THE UNIVERSITY CONTAINED ONLY A DOLLAR, THEY
CAN EXTEND THAT PRIVILEGE TO FOREIGN NATIONS AND FOREIGN
GOVERNMENT, FOREIGN CORPORATIONS.
I’M DISAPPOINTED THEY’RE NOT GOING HELP.
>>MALIA: YOU’RE DISAPPOINTED THAT THEY DIDN’T CHOOSE TO
OPPOSE THE PROJECT.>>YEAH.
THEY SHOULD GO FURTHER. I MEAN, THEY CAN’T BE LEADERS.
IF THEY’RE SITTING IN THE BACK OF THE BUS AND THE PEOPLE ARE
LEADING.>>ESSENTIALLY, WHAT THEY DID
IS WENT BACK TO THE SITUATION A YEAR AGO WHEN ACTUALLY, IT
WAS AT THAT TIME KAHEA AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS WERE
TRYING TO GET ACTIVE TO OPPOSE IT.
WE WERE POINTING OUT OF THE MASTER LEASE, YOU KNOW, OHA
20% FOR SHARE. REVENUES, DERIVED FROM CEDED
LANDS. WE ASKED THEM TO TAKE A REALLY
SERIOUS LOOK AT THIS. VERY, VERY, MORE DISAPPOINTED
THAN TO SUPPORT THE PROJECT. ALL THEY HAVE DONE
ESSENTIALLY IS GO BACK TO WHERE THEY WERE A YEAR AGO.
WE WONDER, WE’RE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT EXACTLY WHAT
THEY’RE SAYING TO THE PUBLIC. AND TO KANAKA MAOLE AT THIS
POINT.>>MALIA: MR. HA, YOU
TESTIFIED TODAY. WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO WHAT
HAPPENED TODAY?>>WELL, I WAS SORT OF
DISAPPOINTED BECAUSE I REALLY WANTED THEM TO SUPPORT THE
30-METER TELESCOPE. AND WHERE I COME FROM, I AM
CONCERNED ABOUT THE BIG ISLAND AND THE FACT THAT WE
HAD THE LOWEST MEDIAN INCOME IN THE STATE, COUNTIES, AND
THE KONA SIDE IS HIGHER, AVERAGES, AND ON THE EAST
SIDE, IS EVEN LOWER. LIKE PAHOA, SCHOOL COMPLEX
FOR EXAMPLE, 90% OF THE STUDENTS PARTICIPATE IN THE
FREE AND SUBSIDIZED LUNCH PROGRAM.
SO I SEE THE VALUE OF THE EDUCATION FUND AND EMPLOYMENT
AND STUFF LIKE THAT.>>MALIA: AND EDUCATION FUND
BEING ONE THAT THE TELESCOPE WOULD SUPPORT, I BELIEVE IT’S
CALLED THINK? SO THAT’S THE FUND YOU REFER TO.
>>YES.>>MALIA: DR. COLEMAN, AS A
NATIVE HAWAIIAN, AND SCIENTIST, WHY DO YOU SUPPORT
THIS? AND WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO WHAT HAPPENED AT
OHA TODAY.>>I WAS ALSO DISAPPOINTED.
IT’S VERY FUNNY. OHA GAVE OUT A POLL OR
SOMETHING, ASKED FOR QUESTIONS, AND ONE QUESTION
WHERE EVERYONE AGREED WAS IF THEY VOTED TO PULL BACK THEIR
SUPPORT FOR THE TMT, WOULD YOU BE DISAPPOINTED.
AND EVERYONE AGREED ON THAT. AND IN FACT, THAT’S THE THING
THEY DID. EXACT WORST THING YOU COULD
DO.>>MALIA: NO ONE WAS HAPPY.
>>IF THEIR INTENTION WAS TO MAKE NO ONE HAPPY, THEY
SUCCEEDED. I’M LIKE RICHARD, I BELIEVE
THAT THE POSSIBILITIES, THE FUTURE POSSIBILITIES, WITH
THE TMT I THINK MUCH OUTWEIGH THE CULTURAL PROBLEMS,
ESPECIALLY IF WE CAN DO IT IN THE CORRECT WAY.
>>MALIA: WE’LL BE GETTING TO DETAILS OF THAT AS OUR HOUR
GOES ON. LET ME GIVE YOU THIS QUESTION.
THIS PROJECT IS 7 YEARS IN THE MAKING, 7 YEARS OF HEARINGS
AND STUDIES. WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT THE
LEVEL OF OBJECTION HASN’T DEVELOPED TO THIS LEVEL UNTIL
NOW? WHAT HAS HAPPENED? THAT’S CHANGED THINGS?
>>MY OPINION IS THAT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT
ARE HAPPENING IN THE STATE. ACTUALLY, IN THE UNITED
STATES AS WELL. BECAUSE THIS MOVEMENT ISN’T
JUST A HAWAIIAN ISSUE. I MEAN, YOU HAVE FOUR KANAKA
MAOLE HERE ON THIS PANEL, TWO WHO OPPOSE AND TWO WHO
SUPPORT. THIS GIVES PEOPLE IMPRESSION
THIS IS INTERNAL KANAKA MAOLE OVER POLICY.
POLICY PEOPLE, PEOPLE CONCERNED ABOUT HOW
GOVERNMENTS MAKE DECISIONS IN THE UNITED STATES AND
LOCALLY, THERE HAVE BEEN MORE AND MORE CONCERNS THAT
ESSENTIALLY, ANY KIND OF INVESTMENT IDEA, FRACKING FOR
INSTANCE, IN THE U.S., CERTAIN KINDS OF
CONSTRUCTION, THAT INVOLVE BIG MONEY, THAT THESE SOMEHOW
OVERSHADOW THE NEED TO PROTECT ENVIRONMENTAL LAWS,
PROTECT LABOR LAWS, PROTECT ALL KINDS OF THINGS WITHIN THE
COMMUNITY. AND I THINK THAT WHAT YOU’RE
ACTUALLY SEEING AS A REAL FRUSTRATION BY PEOPLE HERE IN
HAWAI’I, OF REALLY UNEQUAL ACCESS TO THIS
DECISION-MAKING. I THINK THAT’S WHY YOU’RE
SEEING THIS PLAYED OUT AS A POLITICAL MOVEMENT AND
THEY’RE USING THEIR VOICES. THAT’S WHAT THEY’RE LEFT TO
DO. IS NOT RELAX TO THE
DECISION-MAKING.>>MALIA: WAS THERE NOT IT’S
OPPORTUNITY IN THE PAST 7 YEARS TO EXPRESS THAT
FRUSTRATION? OR WAS THERE A CERTAINLY ELEMENT OF THE LAST
SEVEN YEARS THAT SEEMED SPECIFICALLY UNFAIR?
>>THAT’S CORRECT. I WANTED TO JUST MAKE A
CORRECTION HERE. THE 7 YEARS IS JUST SORT OF A
RANDOM NUMBER. BUT OPPOSITION TO DEVELOPMENT
OF MAUNA KEA HAS GONE ON FOR MANY YEARS.
ACTUALLY BEGAN IN THE SEVENTIES.
IN THE EIGHTIES, GOVERNOR ARIYOSHI HAD TO INTERVIEW AND
CREATE A COMMITTEE THINK IT’S CALLED THE 1970 MANAGEMENT
PLAN. WE’VE BEEN FIGHTING, MANY OF
THE OTHERS HAVE BEEN FIGHTING FOR MORE THAN 15 YEARS.
WE ACTUALLY STOPPED AS MANY AS 10 TELESCOPES BECAUSE OF THE
EARLY CASES. AND SO OPPOSITION, AND THE
OPPOSITION IS AS JOHN SAID, NOT ONLY HAWAIIAN.
THIS IS MAJOR ENVIRONMENTAL, IT’S SUPPORTED BY MAJOR
ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS INCLUDING ANONYMOUS, I WOULD
JUST LIKE TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THAT ACTION.
THEY ARE USING THE TOOLS THAT THEY KNOW TO USE, TO HELP
BALANCE POWER, BECAUSE POWER IS IMBALANCED IN HAWAI’I
OBVIOUSLY. SO I JUST WANT TO SAY 7 YEARS
AND JUST SO PEOPLE UNDERSTAND, I ADMIRE THEIR
ACTIONS. I JUST BELIEVE WE OPEN
COMMUNICATION.>>MALIA: WHEN YOU SAY YOU
ADMIRE THEIR ACTION, WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
>>I ADMIRE THEIR TENACITY TO HELP BALANCE POWER WHERE THEY
SEE IMBALANCE OF POWER. THE ANONYMOUS.
AND SO I JUST WANT PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THAT 7 YEARS
IS 7 YEARS OF FRUSTRATION OF HAVING THREE MINUTES TO
SPEAK, AND BEING TOLD TO SIT DOWN AND BE BEING TOLD ALL OF
THESE THINGS. SO THAT’S WHAT’S REALLY — IT
SHOULDN’T BE A SURPRISE.>>MALIA: IT’S BEEN SIMMERING
FOR A LONG TIME AND IT EXPLODED?
>>EXACTLY.>>MALIA: MAYBE THIS WOULD BE
A GOOD TIME. WHAT IS THE CULTURAL
SIGNIFICANCE OF MAUNA KEA? I MEAN, HOLDS A VERY SPECIAL
PLACE. CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT WHY THIS
IS SUCH AN EMOTIONAL ISSUE FOR MANY OF THE PROTESTERS?
>>I CAN SAY FROM A PRACTITIONER POINT OF VIEW,
THERE ARE MANY OUT THERE WITH MANY SCHOOLS OF KNOWLEDGE,
BUT FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, MAUNA KEA IS A TEMPLE.
IT IS TEMPLE OF SUPREME DEITY AND THE ‘AUMAKUA, AND OUR
ANCESTORS. BURIAL GROUND OF OUR
ANCESTORS. ENTRANCE WAY TO THE POLE,
WHICH IS THE REALM BEFORE THE TIME OF LIGHT.
IT HAS MUCH SIGNIFICANCE. MUCH PRACTICE, MUCH SUCH AS
THE PRACTICE OF THE SOLSTICE AND EQUINOX, WANT TO PROTECT
AGAINST, THAT WE BELIEVE THE TMT WILL INTERFERE WITH.
THINGS LIKE THAT. SO THERE’S HUGE SIGNIFICANCE
IT’S A SACRED PLACE. THAT’S WHAT PEOPLE ARE
OBJECTING TO. DESECRATION OF SACRED PLACE.
>>MALIA: MR. HA, YOU SPOKE EARLIER ABOUT THE POTENTIAL
GOOD THAT THIS TELESCOPE CAN DO FOR THE BIG ISLAND.
COULD YOU ADDRESS THAT, ECONOMIC AND EDUCATIONAL
BENEFITS?>>I THINK WE NEED TO HELP OUR
STUDENTS DREAM BIG BUT IT TAKES MONEY TO GET TO SCHOOL.
WITH THE ECONOMIC CONDITIONS OF THE BIG ISLAND STOPPED, SO
THIS WILL HELP, BECAUSE YOU KNOW, ALL OF US HERE, WE’VE
ALREADY GOT OUR EDUCATION. NOBODY CAN TAKE IT AWAY.
BUT THERE’S SOME CHILDREN THAT CANNOT AFFORD AND THIS IS
WHAT THE EDUCATION FUND CAN DO.
BECAUSE EDUCATION IS THE GREAT EQUALIZER.
>>MALIA: YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT.
I’M GOING TO ADDRESS THIS NEXT QUESTION TO DR. COLEMAN.
THIS IS FROM MAKAKILO. HOW WOULD ANCIENT HAWAIIANS
WHO DEVELOP CELESTIAL NAVIGATION DEVELOP THIS
30-METER TELESCOPE?>>I HAVE A PARTICULAR
PERSPECTIVE ON THAT. I BELIEVE THAT WE HAWAIIANS,
IF YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT IT IS THAT MAKES YOU HAWAIIAN, IT’S
NOT HULA. IT’S NOT OLI.
IT’S NOT LISTENING TO YOUR KUPUNA.
IT’S NOT — THOSE ARE ALL PARTS OF IT, BUT THEY DON’T
SEPARATE US FROM, SAY, THE SAMOANS OR TAHITIANS.
THE THINGS THAT MAKES US HAWAIIANS ANCESTORS CAME TO
US IN A CANOE. THAT’S THE ONLY WAY YOU GET TO
BE HAWAIIAN. THAT WAS LED BY A NAVIGATOR
ASTRONOMER. WE, IT’S PART OF WHO WE ARE.
IT’S DEEP IN OUR DNA, CULTURAL DNA, THAT I FIND IT AMAZING
THAT WE STILL ARE NOT JUST AS CONNECTED TO ASTRONOMY.
>>MALIA: WHY — THERE ARE 13 TELESCOPES THAT ARE ALREADY
THERE. WHY DOES THIS TELESCOPE NEED
TO BE BUILT? WHY IS IT ABOUT THIS ONE THAT WOULD BE SPECIAL
OR UNIQUE FROM A SCIENCE PERSPECTIVE.
>>WE ALWAYS ARE TRYING TO SEE FURTHER INTO THE UNIVERSE.
IN ORDER TO DO THAT, YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT BIGGER AND BIGGER
AREA. SO THE 30-METER, WHILE IT’S
GOING TO BE ABOUT THREE TIMES BIGGER THAN THE KECK, WHICH IS
THE NEXT LARGEST TELESCOPE IT SHOULD INCREASE THE ABILITY
TO SEE BY ABOUT A FACTOR OF 10. SO FOR US, FROM A SCIENCE
PERSPECTIVE, ALLOWS US TO LOOK THAT MUCH FURTHER BACK
INTO UNE VERSE. BACK INTO TIME.
WE TRY TO SEE BETTER. THE PRIMARY IS FOR THE
30-METER TO ADVANCE OUR DISCOVERY.
>>MALIA: TO A NEW LEVEL. DR. OSORIO, DO ANY OF THOSE
SCIENCE BENEFITS SPEAK TO YOU?
>>YEAH, I WOULD LIKE TO SAY, THANK YOU FOR ASKING THE
QUESTION SCIENCE NAVIGATION DOESN’T JUST INVOLVE
ASTRONOMY. IT INVOLVES INTIMATE
KNOWLEDGE OF WINDS AND CURRENTS AND WAVES AND
SWELLS. IT INVOLVES REALLY A KIND OF
HOLISTIC KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THE WORLD OPERATES AND HOW
WEATHER OPERATES. WHEN YOU TAKE A VOYAGE AND
WHEN YOU DON’T TAKE A VOYAGE. ALL OF THESE THINGS WERE
THINGS THAT OUR ANCESTORS KNEW REALLY WELL.
THE REALLY INTERESTING THING ABOUT HAWAIIAN SCIENCE AND
KNOWLEDGE IS HOW ALMOST COMPLETELY IT WAS DEMOLISHED
BY THAT VERY WESTERN EDUCATION THAT IS BEING
CELEBRATED BY THIS TELESCOPE. THERE ARE SO MANY SCIENCES IN
THE WORLD AND THE SCIENCE OF NAVIGATION AND THE SCIENCE OF
SCIENCES OF KNOWING HOW TO LIVE IN A SMALL SORT OF
LIMITED SPACE AND TAKE EVERY ADVANTAGE OF WEATHER, OF THE
WATER, OF THE KINDS OF SEASONS THAT WE HAVE HERE IN THE
SOILS, THESE ARE THINGS THAT HAWAIIANS OUR ANCESTORS BUILT
OVER, THE 1500 YEARS, 2000 YEARS THAT WE’VE BEEN
HERE IN THESE ISLANDS. ALL OF THIS IS KNOWLEDGE THAT
HAS ALMOST BEEN FORGOTTEN AND RELATEDLY, ESSENTIALLY KIND
OF IN THE SHADOW OF THESE HUGE — I SEE THIS AS SHADOW
OF THE TELESCOPES, BASICALLY SAY, LOOK, THIS IS THE
KNOWLEDGE THAT MATTERS. THIS IS THE SCIENCE THAT
MATTERS. AND THIS WILL ALLOW US TO LOOK
10 TIMES FURTHER INTO SPACE. WELL, OKAY.
SO YOU CAN DO THAT NOW WHEN YOU FINISH THIS.
BUT WILL THAT BE ENOUGH?>>I KIND OF DISAGREE, JOHN.
I DON’T BELIEVE THAT MODERN SCIENCE IN ANY WAY WIPED OUT
TRADITIONAL SCIENCE.>>IT ALMOST DID.
>>NO. I THINK WHAT WIPED IT OUT WAS
DISEASES AND THE FACT THAT WE’RE ONE IN 20.
>>YOU DON’T KNOW YOUR HISTORY.
ACTUALLY, THERE WERE VERY SPECIFIC KINDS OF THINGS THAT
WERE DONE IN THE 20TH CENTURY SCHOOLS.
EVEN IN THE 19TH CENTURY SCHOOLS, TO SHOVE THAT
KNOWLEDGE ASIDE. REALLY, BANNING OF KAHUNA
PRACTICES, BANNING OF THE LANGUAGE.
>>DIDN’T WE GIVE THOSE UP OURSELVES? DIDN’T WE DO
THAT?>>NO.
WE ACTUALLY DIDN’T GIVE UP OUR LANGUAGE OURSELVES.
>>I MEANT THE KAHUNA PRACTICES.
>>THERE’S ACTUALLY A LAW ON THE BOOKS THAT PROHIBITED.
THERE’S STILL ONE ACTUALLY. I WANT TO SAY THAT THE THING
THAT WE’RE WITNESSING IS THE IDEA OF WESTERN SUPREMACY.
THE IDEA AT THAT WESTERN SCIENCE SOMEHOW IS MORE
SUPERIOR WAY OF KNOWING. WHAT WE WILL LOSE IF THE TMT
HAPPENS IS OUR BUILT TO TRACK THE HEAVENS OVER THE 26,000
YEAR CYCLE, WHICH HAS BEEN BEING TRACKED IN PERHAPS EVEN
POLYNESIA FOR MILLENIA. SO THE IDEA THAT WE HAD TO GO
BACK AND TRY TO RE-ESTABLISH HOW THAT WAS DONE AND HOW THAT
WAS MEASURED NOT ONLY FROM MOOLELO AND ORAL HISTORY, BUT
FROM OUR KUPUNA AND TO ACTUALLY REALLY STUDY IT AND
REALIGN IT. WE HAD TO DO THAT.
WHERE IT WAS PRACTICED BEFORE, IT WAS ELIMINATED BY
THE PREVIOUS TELESCOPES. SO WHAT IS DOING IS PUSHING US
AGAIN EVEN FURTHER BEHIND. I WANT TO MAKE A CORRECTION.
THERE’S NOT 13 TELESCOPES. THERE’S 22.
IF YOU COUNT THE SMITHSONIAN, VLBA AND THE KECKS 1 AND 2.
THERE ARE 22.>>MALIA: IS 22 THE PROPER
NUMBER? I’VE READ 13.>>THE 13 IS RIGHT.
THE INDIVIDUAL TELESCOPES NEVER OPERATE AS INDIVIDUALS.
>>YES, THEY DO. THEY CAN.
SMA CAN OPERATE.>>THEY OPERATE AT
INTER FEROMETER.>>MALIA: THE REASON IS IT’S
NOT THE NUMBER. IT’S THE IMPACT.
SMA IS HALF A MILE WITH ALL KINDS OF IMPACT.
IT’S NOT RIGHTEOUS TO COUNT IT AS ONE.
>>IT’S A HALF A MILE ACROSS.>>ITTY-BITTY SPOTS.
IT’S NOT RUINING THE ENTIRE HALF A MAILA CROSS.
IT’S JUST THE LITTLE SPOTS.>>EVEN TO THE PUU AND IT IS
THIS WHOLE AREA.>>WE HAD THIS DISCUSSION
BEFORE. THE TELESCOPE IS A COMBINED
ENTITY. IT’S NOT–THEY’RE NOT
SEPARATE TELESCOPES.>>ITS IMPACT.
13 ARE NOT ONLY THE NUMBER. BUT THE IMPACT.
SO THE TMT WOULD NOT MATCH THE ALSO THE HEIGHT AND DIMENSION
OF THE LIMITS THAT ARE SET IN THE ’87 REPORT AND
2000 DIDN’T OVERRIDE IT.>>MALIA: I’M SURE WE’LL KEEP
COMING BACK TO THE ISSUES. THERE IS THIS MOVEMENT TO
POTENTIALLY REVERSE THE APPROVALS AND DECIDE AGAINST
IT F THAT WERE TO BE SUCCESSFUL, IF THIS PROJECT
WERE TO BE SIDELINED, WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT REVERSAL COULD
SAY TO THE WORLD ABOUT DOING BUSINESS IN HAWAI’I, RULE OF
LAW IN HAWAI’I. DO YOU HAVE ANY CONCERNS ABOUT
THAT?>>YES, I DO.
IT WILL BE JUST ANOTHER THING THAT HAPPENS THAT SHOWS THAT
HAWAI’I IS NOT A GOOD PLACE TO DO BUSINESS.
YOU CAN’T TRUST THE AGENCIES TO SAY WHAT THEY — DEPEND ON
THE AGENCIES. I’M WORRIED ABOUT THIS IS ON
THE BIG ISLAND, I MENTIONED ABOUT THE MEDIAN FAMILY
INCOME. WE NEED TO DIVERSIFY OUR
ECONOMY BECAUSE COMING UP IN THE FUTURE, NOT TOO DISTANT
FUTURE IS THE EFFECTS OF RUNNING OUT OF DECLINING
PETROLEUM PRODUCTS. WHEN THAT HAPPENS, IT’S GOING
TO MAKE THIS SITUATION BECOME VERY SMALL BECAUSE THE SOCIAL
IMPACT WILL BE HUGE ON THE PEOPLE OF HAWAI’I.
>>I’M GETTING QUESTION AFTER QUESTION FROM PEOPLE ASKING
WHY NOT REPURPOSE AN EXISTING OBSERVATORY IN ALL DIFFERENT
FORMS. LET ME GO BACK TO YOU,
DR. OSORIO. WOULD YOU, THEN I WOULD LIKE
TO ASK YOU IF THAT’S EVEN POSSIBLE.
WOULD SOME SORT OF REPURPOSING OF AN EXISTING OR
TAKING DOWN OF OBSOLETE SATISFY IN SOME WAY SOME OF
THE RESISTANCE TO THIS AND OPEN THE POSSIBILITY OF GOING
AHEAD AND BUILDING THIS 30-METER TELESCOPE?
>>I FEEL AS THOUGH WHEN THEY’RE WONDERING WHETHER OR
NOT, PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO NEGOTIATE SOME KIND OF WAY THE
TMT CAN EXIST. YOU KNOW, MY OWN OPINION,
CERTAINLY, THE OPINION OF KAHEA, THERE ISN’T A WAY FOR
THAT TO HAPPEN. THE IMPACT OF THIS STRUCTURE
IS EVEN IF IT WERE TO BE RELOCATED ON OTHER OLDER
STRUCTURES, THAT FACILITY WOULD HAVE TO BE RESTORED I
GUESS TO ORIGINAL STATE AND THEN REDONE SO THAT SOMEHOW,
THIS COULD BE BUILT. MAKES LITTLE SENSE TO ME.
THE IMPACT OF THIS HUGE BUILDING IS ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT WE OBJECT TO. ESSENTIALLY, I DON’T — AND
BECAUSE I DON’T THINK THAT THAT’S A NEGOTIABLE THING.
I THINK –>>MALIA: THE SIZE, 18
STORIES?>>YES.
I THINK THAT WHAT WE ARE ACTUALLY IN THE MIDDLE OF AND
MORE IMPORTANT ISSUE FOR PEOPLE, WHETHER THIS THING
GETS BUILT OR NOT, IS REALLY, WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT IN HAWAI’I, IN THE STATE, ON THAT ISLAND,
WHAT IS THE FUTURE AND HOW DO WE MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT THEM?
BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT KAHEA HAS BEEN FIGHTING HAS
BEEN THE WAY THIS HAS BEEN ALLOWED.
DESPITE THE FACT THAT THERE ARE REALLY CLEAR VIOLATIONS
IN AWARDING THIS. ONE OF THE THINGS WE’RE
COMPLAINING ABOUT IS KIND OF THE UNRAVELING OF THE LEGAL
PROTECTIONS THAT ARE THERE FOR CONSERVATION IN THE FIRST
PLACE. THOSE ARE THE LARGE ISSUES.
THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT I REALLY, ALWAYS INSIST ON
KEEPING OUR EYES ON.>>MALIA: LET ME READ THESE TWO
COMMENTS. FROM WAIMEA.
I CAN’T BELIEVE THE OPPOSITION TO A CLEAN, WELL
MEANING PROJECT. I DON’T SEE WHERE THERE’S A
PROBLEM. AND THEN FROM ROSEMARY IN
HONOLULU. IT IS TOTALLY ABSURD TO PUT
ANOTHER TELESCOPE ON MAUNA KEA.
IT WON’T GIVE US FOOD OR WATER.
DOESN’T FEED THE PEOPLE. WE HAVE A DYING PEOPLE.
THE SCIENTISTS SHOULD BE LOOKING DOWN, NOT TO THE
STARS. WHY SHOULD PEOPLE CARE ABOUT
THE STARS AS THIS CALLER HAS ASKED?
>>I CAN ONLY SPEAK FOR MYSELF.
I CERTAINLY HAVE VERY MUCH INTEREST IN THE UNIVERSE AND
WHAT’S GOING ON OUT THERE. I’M ALSO VERY INTERESTED IN
TAKING CARE OF PEOPLE HERE ON EARTH.
AND SO DEFINITELY, WOULDN’T, FOR EXAMPLE, SAY SOMEONE
COULDN’T WORK BECAUSE OF A PROJECT THAT I’M TRYING TO
START. I THINK IT’S JUST SOMETHING OF
OUR NATURE, ALL OF US, EVEN HARDEST TYPES, WOULD SAY,
THAT DARK OF NIGHT, THEY’RE WONDERING WHAT’S GOING ON UP
ABOVE US. AND THIS TELESCOPE MAY ALLOWS
US TO TRY TO FIGURE SOME OF THAT OUT.
IT MAY NOT. BUT IT’S ONLY METHOD THAT I
KNOW TO GO BEYOND WHAT WE CAN SEE WITH OUR EYES.
>>DO YOU HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT? WHY SHOULD PEOPLE CARE
ABOUT THIS TELESCOPE?>>I ALWAYS COME BACK TO THE
EFFECT ON THE PEOPLE. I’M A BIG ADVOCATE FOR WHAT I
CALL THE RUBBER SLIPPER FOLKS.
TOO OFTEN THEY ARE NOT, THEIR FIGHT IS NOT CONSIDERED.
RIGHT NOW, ASTRONOMY PROVIDES CLOSE TO $100 MILLION INTO
THE BIG ISLAND ECONOMY. THE 30-METER TELESCOPE IS
PROBABLY GOING TO ADD ANOTHER 26 MILLION.
300 JOBS CONSTRUCTION. 140 PERMANENT JOBS.
BUT THE THING THAT REALLY, I LOOK AT IT IS THE BENEFITS,
EDUCATIONAL BENEFIT BECAUSE YOU KNOW, IT’S NOT GOING TO BE
INSTANTANEOUS THAT YOU’RE GOING TO GET ALL OF THESE
PEOPLE QUALIFIED BECAUSE IT TAKES A WHILE.
BY THE TIME YOU GET TO COLLEGE, IF YOU’RE NOT
PREPARED, YOU’RE NOT EVER GOING TO BE A SCIENTIST,
TECHNOLOGY, STUFF LIKE THAT. YOU HAVE TO PREPARE FROM
SMALL. IT’S GOING TO BE A LONG, YOU
HAVE TO WORK HARD AND IT’S NOT GOING TO BE INSTANTANEOUS.
WE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE. WHAT I LIKE ABOUT THE 30-METER
TELESCOPE IS THEY UNDERSTAND THIS.
SO THEY’RE STARTING WITH THE KIDS.
>>MALIA: I WOULD LIKE TO ADDRESS THIS NEXT QUESTION.
COMMENT FOR THE PANEL. HAWAIIANS WERE ONCE LEADERS
IN AQUACULTURE, AGRICULTURE, IT’S A CRIME FOR GENERATIONS
NOT TO LEARN FROM ASTRONOMY. DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE IN THE
LOSS OF OPPORTUNITIES IF THIS TELESCOPE WERE NOT TO GO
FORWARD AS PLANNED.>>NO.
UNDER THE LAW, FIRST THING, IT’S A CONSERVATION DISTRICT.
CONSERVATION DISTRICT HAVE RULES.
TMT ADMITS THAT THE IMPACT OF 30 YEARS ASTRONOMY, THIS IS
NASA WHO TOOK INTO ACCOUNT TMT ALSO, 30 YEARS OF ASTRONOMY
DEVELOPMENT HAS RESULTED IN ADVERSE SIGNIFICANT AND
INCIDENTAL IMPACT. THEY HAVE TO REITERATE THAT
BECAUSE IT’S NASA EIS WAS THE ONLY ONE EVER DONE.
WHEN SOMEONE SAYS IT’S A CLEAN SCIENCE, THEORETICALLY, BUT
THEIR OWN EIS IS ADMITTING THAT THE IMPACT IS ADVERSE AND
SIGNIFICANT AND SUBSTANTIAL. THAT’S THE CASE, IT’S NOT GOOD
FOR THE ENVIRONMENT. THE NOT GOOD FOR THE LANDING.
IT’S NOT GOOD FOR THE CULTURE. THEY ARE ALREADY ADMITTING
THAT. NUMBER ONE.
NUMBER TWO, I’M SORRY, QUESTION WAS KIND OF LONG.
>>I THINK WHAT THEY’RE ASKING IS THAT THE GREATER WOULD BE
FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS TO LEARN AND EXPLORE.
>>I GOT IT. RIGHT.
EDUCATION. FIRST THING, YOU NEED TO BE
PAYING RENT. THAT’S THE LAW.
THESE THINGS ARE LAWS. SO WHAT’S STOPPING THE THE
TELESCOPE. WHAT HAS STOPPED THE
DEVELOPMENT FOR 15 YEARS IS THE LAW ACTUALLY.
SO WHEN PEOPLE ARE SAYING, WHY CAN’T YOU JUST THREAT HAPPEN?
WELL, THE LAW DOESN’T LET IT HAPPEN.
IN THIS CASE, THE LAW REQUIRES FAIR MARKET INSURANCE TO BE
PAID ON CEDED LAND. THAT WOULD GO INTO THE GENERAL
EDUCATION FUND. THAT IS NOT HAPPENING FROM ANY
OF THE TELESCOPES. THEY’RE PAYING A DOLLAR.
SO IN THE GENERAL — IF IT WERE GOING INTO THE GENERAL
FUND, IT ADDRESSES HEALTH EDUCATION AND HOUSING.
THAT’S WHERE THE MONEY WOULD COME FROM FOR EDUCATION.
THE THINK TANK IS WHAT — THINK FUND IS WHAT
THEY WHAT THEY CHOOSE TO GIVE BUT IT’S NOT IN COMPLIANCE
WITH THE LAW BECAUSE IT NEEDS TO BE FAIR MARKET.
YOU YALE PAID 12 MILLION FOR 10 DAYS ALONE.
THEY NEED TO BE EVALUATING THE FAIR MARKET.
I’M ALL FOR EDUCATION. YEAH.
>>MALIA: ALL RIGHT, TONIGHT, WE’RE DISCUSSING WHETHER THE
30-METER TELESCOPE SHOULD BE BUILT ON MAUNA KEA.
PLEASE CALL, E-MAIL OR TWEETS YOUR QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS.
CALL 973-1000 IF YOU LIVE ON OAHU.
AND 800-238-4847 IF YOU’RE ON A NEIGHBOR ISLAND.
DR. OSORIO, YOU LOOKED AT IF YOU WANTED TO ADD TO THAT?
>>I WANTED TO JUMP IN ON THAT. WHAT YOU REALLY LOOKING AT
HERE, THE PROMISES OF ECONOMIC BENEFITS, THE
PROMISES OF BETTER EDUCATION, WHAT KEALOHA IS SAYING, IF IN
FACT THE TELESCOPES ARE PAYING FAIR MARKET VALUE, YOU
COULD ACTUALLY SEE HOW THAT MIGHT TAKE PLACE.
BUT THAT’S NOT WHAT’S HAPPENING HERE.
MAUNA KEA IS A CHEAP, ACCESSIBLE, BEST VIEWING KIND
OF PLACE FOR THIS ESTABLISHMENT OF THESE
TELESCOPES AND THIS HAS BEEN JUSTIFICATION ENOUGH FOR
DLNR, AND IN THE PAST, FOR OHA, AND FOR STATE AGENCIES.
TO CLEAR THE WAY. WE’RE BEING TOLD, AS I THINK
PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TOLD, THAT IF IT’S GOOD FOR THE
ECONOMY, THAT’S REALLY AS FAR AS WE WANT ANYONE TO ANALYZE
THIS. SUGAR WAS GOOD FOR THE
ECONOMY. WHALING WAS GOOD FOR THE
ECONOMY. SANDALWOOD WAS GOOD FOR THE
ECONOMY. ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE
BASICALLY. AND ACTUALLY WHAT, THEY WERE
REALLY GOOD FOR, EVERY SINGLE TIME, WERE A HANDFUL OF
INVESTORS, LAND OWNERS, BUSINESS PEOPLE.
THEY WEREN’T NECESSARILY GOOD FOR PEOPLE.
AND I KNOW THAT THIS IS A HARD THING FOR PEOPLE TO THINK
ABOUT WHEN, AS YOU SAY, RUBBER SLIPPER PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN
STRUGGLING WITH A BAD ECONOMY ON HAWAI’I ISLAND FOR A VERY
LONG TIME, BUT RICHARD, HOW MUCH OF THAT BAD ECONOMY IS
REALLY THE RESULT OF NOT BRINGING ENOUGH INVESTMENT
MONEY? HOW MUCH OF IT IS ALSO THE FACT THAT SO MUCH OF THE
LAND IS EITHER CEDED LANDS OR TIED UP IN OUR OWN LARGE
ESTATES WHO ARE REALLY RELUCTANT TO OPEN IT UP TO THE
GENERAL MARKET AND ALLOW PEOPLE TO FIND NEW BUSINESS
OPPORTUNITIES.>>I COME FROM A DIFFERENT
POINT OF VIEW BECAUSE I WENT TO FIVE OF THESE ASSOCIATION
FOR THE STUDY OF HECO CONFERENCES.
VERY WELL AWARE OF WHAT’S HAPPENING WITH THE DECLINING
PETROLEUM PROJECTS.>>THE THING ABOUT ENERGY,
IT’S THE NET ENERGY THAT COUNTS.
IT TAKES ENERGY TO GET ENERGY. IT’S THE NET ENERGY THAT YOU
GET TO USE FOR YOUR SOCIETY. WHAT’S HAPPENING TODAY IS
THAT’S SHRINKING. AS IT SHRINKS.
WE’RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO THE STUFF WITH OUR OWN HANDS.
UNLESS WE START TO USE TECHNOLOGY TO LEVERAGE THE
RESOURCES THAT WE HAVE. THAT’S WHY WE NEED EDUCATION.
WE NEED TO REALLY HAVE OUR KIDS START TO DREAM BIG.
RATHER THAN BECAUSE THE PROBLEM IS IF YOU DREAM SMALL,
YOUR DREAMS MIGHT COME TRUE.>>MALIA: DR. COLEMAN, COULD
YOU ADDRESS THIS ISSUE? ARE TELESCOPES PAYING ENOUGH?
>>WELL, THE WAY THE ONE DOLLAR LEASE CAME ABOUT WAS
BECAUSE HISTORICALLY, HILO WAS WIPED OUT BY A TSUNAMI.
SO THEY STARTED LOOKING FOR A WAY IN WHICH TO BRING NEW
TECHNOLOGY, NEW BUSINESS INTO HILO.
THAT LED TO TELESCOPES ON THE MOUNTAIN.
STARTED OFF AS ONE. GOT TO BE MORE.
BUT THAT ONE DOLLAR HISTORICAL FACT THAT JUST GOT
TIED TO THE 65 YEAR LEASE. WHAT CAN WE DO LEGALLY? WE
COULD ASK THE TELESCOPES IF THEY WOULD PLEASE LIKE TO
INSTEAD RENEGOTIATE AND PAY MORE MONEY.
THAT USUALLY DOESN’T HAPPEN RIGHT OFF.
BUT THE TMT ITSELF, THAT’S WHY I DON’T UNDERSTAND YOUR GUYS’
COMMENTS BECAUSE THE TMT PLANS TO PAY RENTS.
PLANS TO PAY AT LEAST AT FAIR MARKET VALUE, THAT WILL
INCREASE AS THEIR FOOTPRINT ON THE MOUNTAIN GROWS.
UNTIL WHEN IT’S ACTUALLY RUNNING, THEY’LL BE PAYING A
MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. IT WILL GO TO ALL OF THOSE
AGENCIES THAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT.
SO I DON’T UNDERSTAND YOUR OBJECTION TO THE TMT.
I CAN SEE IT FOR THE KECK OR THE OTHER, BUT THEY’RE PART OF
THAT OLD.>>MALIA: SO THE ANGER
DIRECTED TOWARDS TELESCOPE? IS IT BECAUSE OF THIS RESIDUAL
ISSUE?>>LET ME BE CLEAR.
FOR ME AS A HAWAIIAN, IT DOESN’T, THE MONEY IS
IRRELEVANT. BECAUSE IT’S THE SANCTITY OF
THE MOUNTAIN. SACREDNESS.
BUT IF IT IS IT REQUIRED BY LAW, THEN IT NEEDS TO BE DONE.
GOOD EXAMPLE OF WHY THIS IS A PROBLEM IS BECAUSE THE
COMPANY I USED TO WORK FOR P ACTUALLY THE GOVERNMENT,
BRITISH, DUTCH, AND CANADIAN GOVERNMENT, WHICH WAS THE
JOINT ASTRONOMY CENTER JUST PULLED OUT AND UNIVERSITY
GAVE IT TO LOCKHEED MARTIN. IN THAT TRANSACTION, THERE
WAS NOTHING PAID BY THOSE GOVERNMENTS FOR THE USE OF OUR
MOUNTAIN. THAT’S RIDICULOUS.
IT IS RIDICULOUS. IT’S A SLAP IN THE FACE TO THE
OTHER OFFENSES, WHICH ARE EVEN MORE EGREGIOUS.
SO YOU KNOW, IT WOULD BE GREAT, PAUL, IF WE COULD
CHOOSE TO JUST PAY THE LANDLORD WHAT WE WANT, BUT THE
REQUIREMENTS UNDER THE LAW REQUIRING INDEPENDENT
ASSESSOR –>>THAT’S WHAT THE 30-METER IS
DOING. THEY’RE PAYING WHAT’S
REQUIRED BY LAW.>>NO.
THEY’RE NOT. BECAUSE THEY HIRED THEIR OWN
ASSESSOR AND THAT VIOLATES THE LAW TOO.
IT HAS TO BE INDEPENDENT — HE BASICALLY GOT UP AND SAID, THE
MOUNTAIN IS NOT WORTH ANYTHING.
IT’S JUST A BUNCH OF ROCKS.>>HE WASN’T HIRED BY THEM.
>>HE WAS HIRED BY MANAGEMENT. NO.
>>HE WAS HIRED BY THEM. ANYWAYS, OFFICE OF MAUNA KEA
MANAGEMENT.>>MALIA: LET’S GET TO THE
MANAGEMENT ISSUE. THAT WAS DISCUSSED TODAY
DURING THE OHA HEARING. DO SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS IN
TERMS OF THIS SPECIFIC TELESCOPE STEM FROM LONG
STANDING FEELINGS TOWARDS THE MANAGEMENT OF THE AREA?
>>DR. OSORIO>>TMT, SOMETHING THAT
RICHARD POINTED OUT IN THIS THE ARTICLE, THAT BASICALLY,
IT. MT IS TRYING TO MAKE UP FOR
YEARS AND YEARS OF MISMANAGEMENT.
AND IS TRYING TO DO THIS RIGHT.
I’M NOT GOING TO I DON’T KNOW THE INTRICACIES OF THIS
ENOUGH TO COMMENT ON WHETHER OR NOT IT’S COMPLETELY DOING
IT RIGHT. IT’S STILL IN VIOLATION,
HOWEVER. THERE ARE ADVERSE — IT’S
ADMITTING TO ADVERSE — AND SIGNIFICANT ADVERSE IMPACTS.
THAT THEN IS A VIOLATION OF ONE OF THE THESE RULES OF THE
CDUP. THE QUESTION OVER AND OVER
AGAIN, COMES TO BE, WHY DID THEY GET AN EXCEPTION? WE
UNDERSTAND THAT WHY ALL OF THE OTHER TELESCOPES, SCREWED UP
THE MOUNTAIN BECAUSE NOBODY PAID ATTENTION.
EVEN WHEN THEY WERE CHALLENGING THEM IN COURT.
NOBODY MADE THIS BIG ENOUGH ISSUE.
BUT WHY DOES TMT GET AN EXCEPTION? OBVIOUS ANSWER
IS $1.4 BILLION IS WHY. HONESTLY, AT LEAST FOR SOME
PEOPLE IN HAWAI’I, THAT’S NOT A GOOD ANSWER.
IT’S NOT A GOOD ANSWER.>>MALIA: WHILE WE’RE ON
ECONOMICS VAST MAJORITY OF TMT JOBS GOING TO CANADIAN
IT’S, IS THAT THE CASE OR WILL THE NEW TELESCOPE EMPLOY
LOCAL PEOPLE?>>TMT WANTS TO — THEY’RE
STARTING WORK FORCE PIPELINE. WHAT THEY’RE DOING IS, BY 10
YEARS FROM NOW, THEY’RE LOOKING BACK TO MIDDLE
SCHOOL, HIGH SCHOOL, SO THAT THEY GET TRAINED TO DO THE
JOBS. SO THEY ARE DOING THAT.
AND I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT AS A BUSINESS MODEL, WHEN
PEOPLE ARE SUSPICIOUS OF LARGE BUSINESSES, THE
30-METER TELESCOPE FOLKS ARE DIFFERENT.
THEY’RE MUCH, MUCH DIFFERENT. THEY’RE OVER THERE TRYING TO
DO GOOD FOR THE COMMUNITY. I KNOW BECAUSE I KNOW THOSE
FOLKS. THE PRESIDENT OF 30-METER
TELESCOPE IS A PERSON I FEEL LIKE I CAN DO BUSINESS WITH ON
A HANDSHAKE. SOME PEOPLE, YOU CAN DO THAT
WITH. SOME PEOPLE, YOU HAVE TO BRING
LAWYERS. THEY’RE NOT LIKE THAT.
>>MALIA: SO YOU FEEL THAT THEY’LL BE GOOD STEWARDS OF
THE COMMUNITY?>>I’VE SEEN THAT AND I’VE
TALKED TO THEM AND I KNOW WHAT THEY’RE TRYING TO DO.
THEY LET US DO THE MANAGEMENT OF THE — I WAS ON THE
SUBCOMMITTEE. AND WE PUSHED IT SO WE CAN GET
HAWAIIAN STUDENTS TO GET TWO BITES OF THEAPPLE.
PUSHED IT AS HARD AS THEY CAN GO AND THEY LET IT GO.
>>MALIA: LET ME ASK YOU THIS QUESTION.
WHAT IS THE BIGGEST MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT THE
30-METER TELESCOPE?>>WELL, THE BIGGEST
MISCONCEPTION I CAN THINK OF IS THAT IT’S NOT NEEDED.
THAT IT WILL BE, ITS POSITION WILL EASILY FILLED BY OTHER
TELESCOPES, OR THAT IN FACT, WE COULD EASILY MOVE IT FROM
CURRENT PLANS TO MAUNA KEA TO SOMEWHERE ELSE.
>>MALIA: CAN YOU EXPLAIN?>>WELL, ALREADY, A LOT OF
MONEY HAS BEEN INVESTED IN SITE DEVELOPMENT, SITE
PREPARATION, MAUNA KEA IS I DON’T CARE WHAT PEOPLE SAY,
IT’S THE BEST PLACE IN THE WORLD TO ACTUALLY SET UP THIS
TELESCOPE DOWN AND THE NORTHERN PLATEAU, WHILE IT
ISN’T AS GREAT AS, FOR EXAMPLE, THE CRATER RIM OR UP
AT THE SUMMIT, IT STILL IS FANTASTIC AND THE BEST PLACE
IN THE WORLD FOR IT.>>MALIA: AM I CORRECT IN THAT
THE REASON IT’S NOT GOING TO BE UP IS OUT OF CONSIDERATION
FOR THE VISUAL ASPECTS OF IN?>>ORIGINALLY, THEY HAD
THOUGHT THAT PERHAPS THEY COULD GO UP TO THE RIM LINE AND
JUST TAKE ONE OF THE OTHER TELESCOPES OUT AND REPLACE
IT. AND THERE ARE PLANS WITHIN THE
MAUNA KEA MANAGEMENT PLAN THAT ALLOWS FOR REPLACING
TELESCOPES THERE. SUPPOSED TO COME IN AT THE
SAME FOOTPRINT ON THE GROUND, BUT ALSO, 3 DIMENSIONAL
FOOTPRINT. ONE OF THE ORIGINAL THOUGHTS
WAS MAYBE WE COULD PUT IT UP ON THE RIDGE LINE.
BUT THEN THAT WOULD BE, WE FELT WOULD BE JUST TOO MUCH.
>>MALIA: TOO VISUAL.>>TOO VISUAL AND BY PUTTING
IT DOWN ON THE NORTH PLATEAU, IT IT CAN ONLY BE SEEN REALLY
FROM SORT OF ONE ASPECTS IN WAIMEA.
SO IT WAS IN FACT AT FIRST A COMPROMISE TO REDUCE THE
EFFECTIVENESS OF THE SITE BY GOING TO A LOWER ELEVATION.
>>MALIA: DOCTOR, IS THERE ANY APPRECIATION IN THE
OPPOSITION SIDE IN TERMS OF THE SORTS OF CONCESSION TO TRY
TO FIND A LOCATION THAT IS MORE SUITABLE OR IS THAT
IRRELEVANT TO YOU?>>SUGGEST TO ME THAT
ACTUALLY, PEOPLE WHO ARE PLANNING THE FUTURE OF THE
MOUNTAIN ARE REALLY CONSIDERING WHAT HAPPENS NEXT
AFTER TMT AS WELL. I MEAN, WHERE ELSE CAN YOU
ACTUALLY BUILD ON THIS MOUNTAIN? I WANTED TO SORT
OF CONNECT THAT TO WHAT RICHARD WAS SAYING EARLIER
ABOUT THE EDUCATION AND SCIENCES AND TRAINING PEOPLE
IN HAWAI’I TO TAKE PART IN THE TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT
WITH REGARD TO TELESCOPES. IT REALLY IT STRIKES ME THAT
WHAT WE’RE TRYING TO DO IS CREATE THIS KIND OF INDUSTRY
HERE, WHICH WILL THEN, I MEAN, THIS IS JUST MY RATIONAL SIDE.
SAYING THIS MEANS IT. MT IS NOT THE LAST ONE THAT’S
GOING TO BE BUILT. AND AS THESE OTHERS COME ON
LINE, THEY MAY BE REPLACED BY OTHERS.
>>MAYBE NOT AS BIG AS TMT. MAYBE HAVING A DIFFERENT KIND
OF TECHNOLOGY. THIS IS WHAT IS BEING
ENVISIONED FOR THE SUMMIT OF THAT MOUNTAIN, FOR THE LONG
TERM FUTURE. THIS IS WHY I SAY, THIS IS AN
IMPORTANT DECISION TO BE ABLE TO MAKE AND IT’S ABOUT THE
SANCTITY OF THE MOUNTAIN. IT’S ABOUT THE ECONOMY ON THE
HAWAI’I ISLAND. ABOUT THE FUTURE OF
EDUCATION. WHEN I STARTED UNIVERSITY OF
HAWAI’I, THERE WERE FEWER THAN 5% OF THE PEOPLE AT U.H.
MANOA WERE NATIVE HAWAIIANS. NOW MORE THAN 12% ARE.
WE DID ALL OF THIS WITHOUT REALLY WITHOUT TELESCOPE
MONEY. WE HAVE IMPROVED HAWAIIANS
PRESENCE IN HIGHER EDUCATION AND THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM
FOR HAWAIIANS HAS BEEN IMPROVED DRAMATICALLY.
I THINK IN PART BECAUSE OF THINGS LIKE HAWAIIAN STUDIES.
YOU KNOW, WE JUST NEED TO BE REALLY, REALLY CLEAR ABOUT
THE REASONS WE DO THINGS.>>MALIA: DO YOU THINK THERE
WILL BE MORE TELESCOPES AFTER THIS ONE?
>>NO. I’M PRETTY SURE IT’S THE LAST
ONE. THERE MAY BE, IT’S THE LAST I
SHOULD SAY IT’S THE LAST NEW SITE.
SOME OF THE OLDER ONES MAY ACTUALLY GET RECYCLED.
THE CURRENT PLAN IN THE LONG RANGE PLAN OF THINGS IS TO
ACTUALLY DECREASE THE NUMBER OF TELESCOPES UP THERE.
13 TO SOMETHING LIKE SIX OR SO.
BUT ONE OF THE SIX WILL PROBABLY BE THE 30-METER.
IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF ECONOMICS,
$1.4 BILLION, YOU CAN GET THAT MAYBE ONCE IN YOUR LIFE.
BUT I DON’T BELIEVE THAT IN THE NEXT, EVEN IN THE NEXT 50
YEARS, THAT ARE WE’LL EVER HAVE THIS HAPPEN AGAIN.
>>MALIA: THIS OPPORTUNITY. ALL RIGHT.
>>MAY I SAY SOMETHING? FIRST OF ALL, I WOULD LIKE TO
SAY THE TMT CAN’T FIT ON THE SUMMIT.
THAT’S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO REALLY GET
AWAY FROM DISCUSSION OF ALL OF THE ECONOMICS AND I WOULD LIKE
TO REMEMBER, A QUOTE FROM PAUL NEVES IS THAT DESECRATION IS
NOT EDUCATION. I MEAN, WHAT WE’RE MISSING
HERE IN THIS DISCUSSION HERE IS THAT IT IS DESECRATION.
AND DESECRATION IS UNLAWFUL IN HAWAI’I.
IT’S AGAINST THE LAW. AND DESECRATION IS AN ACT OF
DEFACING, DESTROYING, ANYPLACE OF GENERATION, A
MONUMENT, BURIAL GROUND. THAT’S WHAT’S HAPPENING ON
MAUNA KEA. I WANT TO BRING IT BACK TO WHAT
THE PROTECTORS ARE TRYING TO PROTECT AGAINST,
DESECRATION. IN HAWAI’I, IT’S $10,000 FINE
ONE YEAR IN PRISON AND/OR BOTH.
BUT NOBODY IS ENFORCING THAT.
YET, IT’S EXACTLY DESECRATION IN THE LAW, HRS 711-1107.
>>MALIA: IS THERE A BIGGER ISSUE HERE? WRONGS OF THE
PAST, SOVEREIGNTY. STILL LEGAL OVERTHROW OF THE
HAWAIIAN MONARCHY AND THE ANNEXATION OF THE CRUX OF THE
ISSUE. U.H. HAS STEWARDSHIP.
>>THAT IS A QUESTION. TITLE IS A QUESTION.
THIS IS CEDED LANDS. BUT THE MAIN THING IS THAT
MAUNA KEA IS SACRED PLACE AND WHAT IS HAPPENING IS
DESECRATION. AND NOBODY SEEMS TO BE
BOTHERED BY THAT. BUT IF SOMEONE WERE RUNNING
OUTSIDE AND BURNING A FLAG, AND IT WOULD OUTRAGE MANY
PEOPLE. OBVIOUSLY, WHAT WE’RE SEEING
TODAY IS THAT OUTRAGE, BUT AT LEAST IN HAWAI’I, WE’RE
CHOOSING TO HANDLE IT WITH ALOHA.
DON’T MAKE MISTAKE. THIS IS OUTRAGE BECAUSE IT IS
AN OUTRAGE US ACT TO CONTINUE TO DO THAT.
WE HAVE ASKED AND ASKED AND ASKED AND SO THIS REACTION
THAT IS HAPPENING IS VISCERAL RESPONSE TO TRUE ALOHA
ACTUALLY.>>MALIA: ALL RIGHT.
I’M GOING TO START GETTING TO SOME OF OUR QUESTIONS.
WE’RE NEARING THE END OF THE SHOW.
FOR MR. HA, IF WE SEND A MESSAGE TO POTENTIAL
COMPANIES THAT HAWAI’I IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC TECHNOLOGY AND
BUSINESS FRIENDLY ENVIRONMENT, HOW WOULD YOU
SUGGEST WE ALLOW OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ON THIS ECONOMICALLY
DEPRESSED ISLAND TO SUCCEED AND BECOME FINANCIALLY SECURE
TO BE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO LIVE ON THE BIG ISLAND WITHOUT
MOVING TO THE MAINLAND? WOULD IT BE TO CONTINUE IN
SERVICE JOBS AND TOURISM, BUILDING MULTIMILLION HOMES
FOR PEOPLE LOCALS CANNOT AFFORD.
>>IT’S A PROBLEM. IF WE DON’T DIVERSIFY THE
ECONOMY, WE’RE GOING TO RELY ON THE MILITARY AND TOURISM.
GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO TAX US MORE AND THEY WON’T BE ABLE TO
TAKE CARE OF THE RUBBER SLIPPER FOLKS.
WHAT WE NEED IS TRICKLE UP ECONOMICS.
NOT TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS. IF WE CAN FIGURE OUT A WAY FOR
THE RUBBER SLIPPER FOLKS TO MAKE MONEY, THEN THEY’LL
SPEND. 2/3 OF THE ECONOMY IS MADE UP
OF CONSUMER SPENDING.>>MALIA: WHAT STAGE IS THE IN
THE PROJECT ARE WE AT? YOU HAD ADDRESSED, COULD IT STILL
BE MOVED ELSEWHERE WITHOUT EXCESSIVE COST.
WHERE IS THE PROJECT ACTUALLY AT THIS MOMENT?
>>RIGHT NOW, I GUESS THERE’S ONE STILL ONE LEGAL CASE
THAT’S STILL PENDING. TMT GROUP HAS RECEIVED ALL
PERMITS, ET CETERA, AND THE GOVERNOR HAS ACTUALLY GIVEN
THEM THE GO AHEAD TO START BUILDING.
THEY HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO BUILD AND THEY’RE, I GUESS
THEY’RE WITHHOLDING. TRYING TO SEE IF WE CAN WORK
SOMETHING OUT OR IF WE CAN GET TO SOME COMPROMISE THAT
DOESN’T MEAN PUTTING PEOPLE IN JAIL FOR BLOCKING WORK.
SO THE ONLY THING THAT’S IN FACT, STILL WAITING, BUT
STILL ALLOWED TO PROCEED, IS THE ONE LAST LEGAL CHALLENGE.
>>MALIA: LET ME ASK YOU THIS. ARE YOU SAYING NO COMPROMISE
ON THIS ABSOLUTELY NOT, THE PROJECT NEEDS TO BE STOPPED BY
WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY, THE LEGAL MEANS, AND IF ECONOMIC
PENALTY IN TERMS OF COUNTER SUIT BECAUSE OF PROJECT WAS
STOPPED, DO YOU THINK THAT’S WORTH THE PRICE? OR DO YOU
SEE ANY ROOM FOR COMPROMISE HERE?
>>I THINK IT WOULD BE A TERRIBLE PRICE TO PAY AND I
KNOW EXACTLY WHO WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS.
IT WOULD BE THE GENERATIONS OF BASICALLY POLICY MAKERS WHO
REFUSE TO BASICALLY LISTEN WHEN REPORTING OUT PROBLEMS
WITH THIS PROJECT FROM THE VERY, VERY BEGINNING.
LET’S LOOK AT THIS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY.
IF THIS IS ONE OF THOSE TOO BIG TO FAIL KIND WAS SITUATIONS.
CONSIDER HOW MANY AMERICANS WERE REALLY FURIOUS WITH THE
GOVERNMENT’S DECISION TO BAIL OUT BANKS IN 2008 BECAUSE THEY
WERE TOO BIG TO FAIL. BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH THOSE
PEOPLE HAD BEEN, VERY PEOPLE THAT BROUGHT THE UNITED
STATES TO THE BRINK OF ECONOMIC CRISIS.
I REALLY HONESTLY PEOPLE HAVE TO-SHALL THIS IS NOT JUST
ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR DECISION.
IT’S ABOUT HOW WE MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT LAND USE IN
HAWAI’I. SAYING THIS ALL ALONG,
KAHEA –>>MALIA: YOU’RE SAYING NO
COMPROMISE. IT CANNOT BE BUILT, PERIOD?
>>CANNOT BE BUILT.>>MALIA: WHATEVER COMES OF IT
COMES OF IT IN TERMS OF THE FALLOUT?
>>THAT’S WHAT I BELIEVE.>>I HAVE TO GO BACK TO YOU.
IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE? THE AGREEMENTS ARE IN PLACE.
I MEAN, I KNOW THERE IS A LEGAL CASE PENDING.
SO THAT WOULD SEEM TO BE THE ONLY PLACE WHERE IT MIGHT
TRULY STOP. OR IS IT TOO LATE FOR LEGAL?
>>I’M NOT A LAWYER, SO I CAN ONLY SAY THAT MILLIONS OF
DOLLARS HAVE BEEN SPENT AND THIS IS CONTRACTS HAVE BEEN
WRITTEN AND SIGNED. SO THIS WOULD BE IN SOME WAY,
VERY, VERY BAD FOR THE STATE OF HAWAI’I.
>>MR. HA?>>YOU KNOW, THE 30-METER
TELESCOPE IS BEING FINANCED BY DIFFERENT COUNTRIES AND
THEIR POOLING THEIR MONEY TOGETHER.
THIS IS NOT YOUR REGULAR, WHAT YOU THINK OF AS BIG BUSINESS,
LIKE MANUFACTURING. IT’S NOT THAT.
WHAT IT IS, IS IS A BIG NONPROFIT AND THROWING MONEY
IN. DISCRETIONARY MONEY.
SO IF THE ECONOMY GOES SOUTH BECAUSE OF OIL ENERGY, AND IT
WILL AFFECT THE WHOLE WORLD, WE’RE GOING TO BE WISHING THAT
WE HAD SOMETHING MONEY COMING IN BECAUSE THIS IS FREE MONEY.
>>MALIA: ONE THING I’VE HEARD RAISED QUITE A BIT IS THIS
TELESCOPE COULD BECOME OBSOLETE, THAT TELESCOPES
WILL KEEP GETTING BIGGER. IS THAT THE CASE?
>>ECONOMICALLY, I CAN’T THINK HOW IT WOULD BE
POSSIBLE. HISTORICALLY, THINK BACK TO
DIFFERENT REGIME. RADIO TELESCOPES KEPT
BUILDING BIGGER ONES UNTIL THEY REACHED AID CERTAIN
SIZE. THEN THE COST VERSUS
EFFECTIVENESS CURVE OR SOMETHING CAME UP AND THEY
SAID, NO, WE CAN’T GO ANY BIGGER.
BUT WHEN WE FIGURED OUT HOW TO MAKE A BUNCH OF LITTLE
TELESCOPES THAT CAN MIMIC A BIG ONE.
AND I THINK THE SAME KIND OF TECHNOLOGY IS GOING TO
HAPPEN, OPTICAL AND WE’RE NOT GOING TO BUILD A BIGGER ONE
THAN THE 30-METER OR THE CURRENT ONES THAT ARE GOING
DOWN IN CHILE. I CAN’T IMAGINE, PEOPLE WOULD
HAVE NO MONEY TO SPEND ON THIS.
I ALSO BELIEVE WE HAVE SMART KIDS.
THEY’RE GOING TO FIGURE THIS OUT AND WE’RE GOING TO HAVE
INTERFEROMETERS INSTEAD. RADIOS STOPPED BUILDING.
LAST WAS A LARGE TELESCOPE IN WEST VIRGINIA.
>>MALIA: DO YOU SEE ANY OPPORTUNITY FOR ANY KIND OF
PROGRESS OR MOVEMENT IN TERMS OF FINDING SOME SORT OF ANSWER
TO THIS STANDOFF?>>I THINK IF THEY, IT’S A
LEGAL ISSUE. THE FACT THEY ADMITTED THAT
THE IMPACTS ADVERSE SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE FIRST CLUE TO
DLNR NOT TO ISSUE THE LEASE. OR THE CDUP.
WE KEEP TALKING ABOUT ALL OF THESE WONDERFUL THINGS EXCEPT
FOR THE PART WHERE IT’S NOT LEGAL.
THE RULES ARE IN PLAIN ENGLISH.
YOU CAN READ THEM. THEY SAY IF THE PROJECT HAS
ADVERSE OR SIGNIFICANT IMPACT, IT MAY NOT GET THE BOX
DOESN’T GET CHECKED. HE CAN’T PASS ON.
SO THAT’S WHAT OUR CASE IS ABOUT.
AND WHY DO WE HAVE THAT CASE IS BECAUSE LIKE JOHN SAID,
THIS IS CONSERVATION DISTRICT.
A LOT OF LAND IN HAWAI’I IS IN CONSERVATION.
THE HALEAKALA CASE IS IN THE SUPREME COURT CASE.
THE SUPREME COURT COURT ACCEPTED IT.
SO IT HAS VERY SIMILAR ISSUES AS OURS.
SO OBVIOUSLY, THE COURTS BELIEVE THAT THESE ISSUES
HAVE MERIT. AND ARE TAKING THEM.
IT’S BECAUSE THESE ARE SERIOUS LAND USE ISSUE.
>>MALIA: ARE THERE ANY CONCERNS FROM THE OPPOSITION
THAT YOU THINK ARE WARRANTED, CHANGES THAT MR. HA.
LET ME ASK YOU THIS. FROM THE OPPOSITION, COMMENTS
YOU’RE HEARING, WHAT MAKING SENSE TO YOU? WHAT CHANGES
WOULD MAKE SENSE DOWN THE LINE ON MAUNA KEA?
>>ANY THOUGHTS? BETTER MANAGEMENT? MORE OUTREACH
NATIVE HAWAIIAN COMMUNITY?>>I THINK THOSE THINGS ARE
ALL IMPORTANT. BETTER MANAGEMENT HAS BEEN,
THAT’S BEEN A COMPLAINT FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME.
BUT I THINK ALSO, JUST EDUCATION, WE JUST HAVE TO
MAKE A BETTER CASE FOR WHAT WE’RE DOING.
WE HAVE TO IN FACT TRY TO UNDERSTAND HOW THIS CAN OR
CANNOT WORK. IF I THINK THAT ALL KANAKA
MAOLE HAVE TO DECIDE, EACH ONE, HAS TO DECIDE WHETHER THE
MOUNTAIN IS TOO SACRED TO BUILD ON.
IF IT THEIR ANSWER IS, IT IS, THEN WE HAVE A MUCH HARDER
TIME TRYING TO FIND ANY FURTHER COMMON GROUND.
BUT IF THE ANSWER IS, WELL, OKAY, I CAN IMAGINE IT IF I
THIS THINK IT IN TERMS OF SOMETHING MY ANCESTORS WOULD
DO OR SOMETHING THAT GIVES US MORE EMPOWERMENT AS A PEOPLE,
THEN THOSE ARE THINGS WORTH TALKING ABOUT.
>>MALIA: FINAL MOMENTS. LET ME GO TO THIS COMMENT FROM
JOHN IN WAIMEA. WHY IS BILLING A TELESCOPE ON
A SMALL PLOT ON MAUNA KEA A DESECRATION WHEN JUST A MILE
AWAY MILITARY IS BLASTING A ON A SACRED MOUNTAIN THAT ISN’T
BEING PROTESTED. DO YOU THINK THE ENERGY WE’VE
SEEN AROUND THIS IS GOING TO SPREAD TO OTHER ISSUES TO
OTHER CONTROVERSIAL DEVELOPMENTS?
>>I LIKE TO SAY TO ADDRESS THAT, THAT’S BEING LITIGATED.
TO MAXINE AND UNCLE KU HAVE THAT CASE GOING ON, AGAINST
PTA.>>MALIA: DO YOU THINK THE
ENERGY WILL SPREAD TO OTHER ISSUES, OTHER DEVELOPMENT
IT’S, ARE WE GOING TO START TO SEE, NO, WE’VE HAD ENOUGH
DEVELOPMENT COMING FROM THE NATIVE HAWAIIAN COMMUNITY AND
OTHER SECTORS?>>I THINK THAT’S MAUNA KEA
ISSUE IS A PINNACLE ISSUE THAT HELPS ADDRESS ALL OF OUR
ISSUES. ISLANDWIDE.
IT’S THE FRUSTRATION ISLANDWIDE THAT IS RISING UP
AND ACTUALLY PEOPLE ARE SAYING, WE’RE FREE AND WE’RE
NOT GOING TO GO BACK. WE’RE FREE TO BE ALOHA AND
WE’RE FREE TO LIVE OUR CULL NEWER IN THE WAY WE WANT.
>>MALIA: FINAL MOMENTS. MR. HA, WHAT DO YOU THINK.
>>I’M CONCERNED ABOUT THE, HAWAIIANS USED TO LOOK 7
GENERATIONS OUT. SO WE NEED TO BE LOOKING DOWN
THE ROAD, WHAT IS GOING TO BE HAPPENING ON THE VARIOUS
SCENARIOS. AND THE SCENARIO I KEEP ON
BRINGING UP IS ENERGY. WHAT HAPPENS IN 20 YEARS WHEN
WE CANNOT AFFORD THE OIL AND GAS? NOW, WITH MONEY COMING
IN FROM THE OUTSIDE, THAT’S A FREE ONE.
THERE GOING TO BE IN TROUBLE. WE’LL BE IN TROUBLE.
SO I’M VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE PLANNING.
WE HAVEN’T DONE THE PLANNING.>>MALIA: WE’RE IN OUR FINAL
MOMENT.>>WE HAVEN’T DONE THE
PLANNING. WE NEED TO DO A LOT MORE
PLANNING. ONE OF THE THINGS DECISIONS WE
HAVE TO MAKE IS ARE WE WILLING TO SELL THIS MOUNTAIN FOR
$1.4 BILLION BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT
HERE. THIS PROJECT SHOULD BE
STOPPED. PEOPLE NEED TO STOP, STEP BACK
AND FIGURE OUT HOW WE USE LAND IN GENERAL.
>>MALIA: LET ME GIVE YOU THE FINAL WORD.
YOUR THOUGHTS.>>DO YOU THINK THE PROJECT
WILL MOVE FORWARD?>>I HOPE IT WILL.
I HOPE WE CAN COME TO SOME KINDS OF UNDERSTANDING.
OBVIOUSLY, SOME MEMBERS DON’T FEEL THAT WAY.
I FEEL THAT I CAN SAY ONE THING.
IF THAT TELESCOPE IS UP THERE, THERE WON’T BE ANY
RESTAURANTS BUILT UP THERE. THERE WON’T BE ANY
MCDONALD’S. THERE WILL BE NO HOTEL.
INVESTING IN ASTRONOMY MEANS THAT THAT NO MOUNTAIN STAYS
FOR ASTRONOMY.>>MALIA: THANK YOU ALL FOR A
INTERESTING AND CIVIL CONVERSATION.
>>GOOD TALK. FOR DECADES, TOURISM HAS BEEN
A PRIMARY DRIVER OF HAWAI’I’S ECONOMY WITH VISITORS
CONTRIBUTING 1.5 BILLION TO THE STATE’S TAX REVENUE 2013
ALONE. BUT THE RELIANCE ON TOURISM
WHICH SUPPORTS MORE THAN 17% OF OUR JOBS MAKES THE STATE
ESPECIALLY VULNERABLE TO ECONOMIC SHIFTS.
CAN HAWAI’I STILL RELY ON THE VISITOR INDUSTRY? THAT’S
NEXT TIME ON INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAII.
I’M MALIA MATTOCH. A HUI HO.